Would somebody please buy these drums?

...before I have a moment of weakness and do something stupid? This set of 70s Sonor Phonics in all the right sizes has been on eBay for a couple of months now, for a pretty darned reasonable price. It's got 10, 12, 13, and 14" toms, and a 20" bass drum. The finish is not the most desirable in the world, but it's not terrible either— it seems to be pretty common, so you stand a reasonable chance of finding an orphaned 18" BD or 16" FT— the only other drums you could possibly want to add to this. The seller says the BD and FT are Centennials, and the other drums are regular Phonics, but they're all the same thing. Exact same drums.

I fell in love with Phonics several years ago when I borrowed a bop set for a jazz tour, rock recording session, and one rock gig in Belgium. It had been a long time since I had gotten really excited about a particular brand of drums. After a couple of years I found my own set, and they've been great. Very punchy with a low tuning, almost pianistic with a high tuning. The 18" bass drum is a monster, and the 20 must absolutely rock. Very early 90s Joey Baron.

If you're a player, and DGAF about a finish that's slightly dated, I'd be contacting this guy and trying to finagle free shipping on these suckers.

Two killer drum sets — UPDATED

UPDATE: Both sets have been relisted, with a significant price drop on the Sonors. Don't make me call these guys and beg them to ship the drums to Portland, and incur some debt I don't really need right now. 

I hope I'm not ruining somebody else's bargain by pointing these out, but a couple of really great drum sets turned up on eBay just in the past couple of days, and I would rather my readers got them, than some other non-CSD!-reading, undeserving, rabble...

Sonor Phonic Centennial 10/12/13/14/20
starting bid $1700, BIN $2500
RELISTED: starting bid $1500, BIN $2000

After playing and recording with some Sonor Phonics in Belgium in 2012, I had being driving myself crazy trying to get a set, and finally found some last year. These are the ones with the fat, 9-ply beech shells. Not many Phonics turn up in usable sizes, like these; you can get them in rock & roll sizes for under $1000, but non-power tom sets with 18 or 20" bass drums tend to be up in the high teen-hundreds or low 2000s. It's not an insane value, but not absolutely ridiculous, either. They are special instruments, though, and, to me, worth the money. I think I paid $1800 for my 12/14/18 bop set, and will probably be spending another $500 to add 10 and 13" toms, if I ever find them, so I think you're getting a pretty darned good deal here. Fortunately the auction doesn't include that goofy snare drum.

Eames 10/12/14/18
$900-1200, depending on options
RELISTED: $1200 OBO

I would totally be buying these if I had not just gotten my Phonics. These are right in the sweet spot for quality / size / price / not having anything goofy about them. The toms are a little deeper than standard, but that's cool— it's not some ridiculous-looking power tom set. But this is the type of deal I hold out for when buying new drums; I basically would never pay more than this... except to get my Sonors. The Eames company, custom drum shell manufacturers, have been overshadowed somewhat by Keller with the drum-building crowd, but they're great drums. I just picked up a Craviotto-built (in the 80s) snare drum with a thin Eames shell, and I love the thing. The seller is offering some purchase options— I would be getting these with the snare drum, and without the die-cast hoops (assuming they provide standard hoops instead).


Both sellers are in the US Northeast, and say they'll do pickup only, but maybe you can cajole them into doing something for you. Whatever you do, resolve that before you buy...

There's no excuse at all for buying student cymbals any more

Unless you just live for peeling away factory packaging, or have some kind of sick virginity fetish. Following up on my previous piece on this subject— to get good, cheap cymbals now, all you have to do is just hold out your hands and wait for the the low-hanging fruit to plop into them. This is what many older used Sabian AAs—not cracked or otherwise damaged, nor even all that dirty— are selling for these days:

And then I just stopped looking. There were many more that were under $100, and many more than that under ~$130, which I would've considered to be a nice bargain a few years ago. Same goes for late-60's-mid-80's A. Zildjians; for $72 I just picked up an early 80s 20" Deep Ride which looks like it could've been sitting on the rack in a music store for the past 30 years. They're cheap as dirt. This is just as sellers of the contemporary Paiste equivalent— the pre-serial 602 line— have gone out of their minds in the opposite direction, tacking on at least $100 to the selling price of the ubiquitous 20" Medium Rides, and basically doubling the price of everything else. Then there's this sleazebag:

Back in 1959 PAISTE launched a series of cymbals that was destined to change the world and to become one of the world's most revered cymbals in the history of cymbal making.... 

This one was produced between 1959 and 1966 Its beautiful, pristine, and always controlled musical tone was adopted by well-known drummers and percussionists including none other than Joe Morell, Art Blakey, Paul Motian, Ndugu Chancler, Jon Hiseman, Charlie Watts and a host more! For your consideration, a '50' year old +, vintage, pre-serial, PAISTE Formula 602, 22" MEDIUM RIDE! This "Pretty-Paleolithic-Piece-of-PAISTE-Perfection" is one of the 'Holy Grail' of rides. This cymbal has absolutely unbelievable balance, with excellent stick definition and the perfect amount of wash & volume!This is a very old Paiste cymbal made in Switzerland during the pre-serial number era (1959-1966), and it has been kept in its original condition; that is to say, never cleaned. 

Considered by some to be the "holy grail" of cymbals, these original Paiste cymbals have a unique sound that have not been matched, even with the re-installment of the Formula
Highly collectable and fairly rare …get yours ...

“Considered by some” indeed; the guy (user name soundinvestmentsusa, located in New Jersey) is asking $1850 for a disgusting-looking 22" 602 Medium Ride from around 1970. Considered by everyone but the aforementioned some to be worth around $180. It's a good cymbal, and maybe you could get up to around $250 for a really nice one. The second-most insane psychotic selling one of these is asking a full $1100 less than this guy— still an outrageous gouging.

Anyhow, if you want to take advantage of this upside-down price bubble, my previous advice is basically sound: get thee on eBay, look for 1960's-80's A. Zildjians or Sabian AAs up for no-reserve auction (rather than Buy-It-Now), and be very patient in holding out for your dream price. Anything under $100 is still a score, as far as I'm concerned, and you may be able to do much better than that. Restrict yourself to normal cymbals— New Beat hihats (or Sabian Regular hihats), thin or medium thin crashes, medium rides. Some sort-of unpopular models may be extra cheap— Quick Beat hihats, Ping rides, Mini-Cup rides— as well as some heavier cymbals— Medium crashes and Rock rides. Cracks/dents = bad; do not buy. Keyholing = doesn't matter. Dirt = doesn't matter.

While it's possible prices may rebound into a more normal range, I would not plan on buying low and selling high and making a killing. And if you want to preserve this buyer's market, be chivalrous in your bidding— don't drive prices up trying to outbid people. There are plenty of other similar cymbals out there. Let the other guy get a great deal once in awhile.

How to get real cymbals when you're poor

The sort of thing you're looking for.

2019 UPDATE: The economy has recovered substantially since I originally wrote this in 2012, so if you're ready to spend a little more money on some great cymbals, personally selected by me, head over to my other site, Cymbalistic.com, and check out some of the wonderful Cymbal & Gong brand cymbals I have for sale.

The original 2012 article: This is really a good time to buy used cymbals-- thanks to the wonderful recession, and the proliferation of extremely high-end cymbals, prices for used merely-pro-quality cymbals are as low as they've ever been. Which is why it kills me to see young drummers spending way too much on new student-line junk, which will sound like crap for a few years, and then end up in a landfill. For about the same money they could have top of the line cymbals that will last a lifetime, sound good, and retain their value-- most of it, anyway.


So buy used. Really used.
The best bargains are moderately old, very grungy pro cymbals-- dirty, dull-looking bronze, painted-on logos only a rumor of a memory-- if they ever had them to begin with. You're a musician and you play the things for the sound anyway, right? Then get over this consumeristic, virginity-fetishizing thing of needing to unbox perfectly pristine new cymbals. That only leads you down the overpaying, crappy-but-shiny path.


About those student/economy/budget/semi-pro cymbals
Listen: those aren't actually cymbals. You might be able to use them as placeholders for cymbals until you can afford real ones, but consider their value to be basically zero-- the money you spend on them basically goes away forever. Buying them new is a big mistake; buying them used you should drive and extremely hard bargain-- I would never pay more than about $50 for a used semi-pro ride cymbal, for example. And do your homework so you know the difference between the almost-usable semi-pro cymbals and the true yellow-tinted sheet metal trash.


Buy online
Generally, serious drummers don't like buying cymbals without first playing them, and that tends to drive down used prices online. We're going to take advantage of that.

We're also going to take advantage of the fact that you may be a little inexperienced, and don't know enough to be real picky about your cymbals yet. If you get a reliable brand, in a normal weight for its category, you should end up with a usable cymbal. If you really hate what you get, you can always get your money back reselling them.


Learn how to work the eBay
You will get your extreme bargain cymbals through no-reserve auctions. We can generalize about the value of a type of used cymbal, but the actual final selling prices can vary widely from month to month, for all sorts of mysterious reasons. So get acquainted with the “completed listings” search, which will show you how much things are actually selling for lately. Buy It Now prices, and prices of auctions in progress are not reliable gauges for how much you should be paying right now.


Be familiar with the cymbal brands, lines and models.
Right now the cheapest pro-quality cymbals appear to be 70's and 80's A. Zildjians and 80's Sabian AAs. I've also been surprised to see a few very good deals on 70's Paiste 2002s. It's worth following some of Paiste's discontinued pro lines from the 80's and 90's as well-- the Sound Formula, 2000, 3000, and Dimensions series especially. Paiste's old semi-pro 505 line is also reasonably good, and can be found very cheaply.

You want to know the rough weight class behind the obscure, impressionistic labels companies slap on cymbals ("Stage", "Power", "Rock", "Bright", etc, etc). Getting a great deal only to have the cymbal arrive and turn out to be totally the wrong thing for what you wanted to use it for is the opposite of a bargain; that is, a costly problem. Even if it's no big deal to re-sell the thing, it's still a hassle and a time-waster, and you're paying a little tax on the transaction to those twin vampire squid eBay and PayPal.


Knowing a little bit about gram weights is also helpful; it has become the primary way for cymbal purchasers to know exactly what they're getting at least in terms of weight, since normal categories ("medium", "thin", etc) are tend to vary wildly. Here is a chart I pilfered from the Vintage Drum Forum, who in turn pilfered it from the Cymbalholics forum:

Weight Range Table for 22 Inch cymbals:
extra light ------- 1900-2100g
light ------------- 2100-2300g
medium light ---- 2300-2500g
medium --------- 2500-2800g
medium heavy -- 2800-3100g
heavy ----------- 3100-3500g
very heavy ------ 3500 and up

Weight Range Table for 20 Inch cymbals:
extra light ------- 1570-1735g
light ------------- 1735-1900g
medium light ---- 1900-2066g
medium --------- 2066-2314g
medium heavy -- 2314-2561g
heavy ----------- 2561-2892g
very heavy ------ 2892 and up

Weight Range Table for 18 Inch cymbals:
extra light ------- 1272-1405g
light ------------- 1405-1539g
medium light ---- 1539-1673g
medium --------- 1673-1874g
medium heavy -- 1874-2075g
heavy ----------- 2075-2342g
very heavy ------ 2342 and up 

Even if you're a rock player, please go to a local store and play a few "heavy", "rock" or "power" labeled cymbals before you start ordering them blind online.


Be adaptable
You may not be absolutely wild about every cymbal you purchase this way. That's life. Most of my career (until Cymbal & Gong came along) I haven't been wild about most of the cymbals I've owned, however I acquired them. You just have to play them and get the best sound you can out of them, until you find your dream cymbal. It takes some years of trying to get a sound from OK cymbals to develop the technique to really be able to use great cymbals anyway.


The classic all-purpose set-up
You can never go too far wrong with medium hihats and rides, and thin crashes. For any type of music. So if you don't know what to get, get these:

A. Zildjian or Sabian AA:
20" medium ride
16, 17, or 18" thin or medium-thin crash
13 or 14" New Beat (Zildjian) or medium/regular (Sabian) hihats

Usually the Paiste equivalent of any of these cymbals will be labeled simply "crash" or "ride" or "hihats."


Get lucky and hold out for the right price 
Improve your chances of getting lucky by following a lot of auctions, and don't be in a rush to buy. It way take a couple of months to get the right magic bargain. I would consider the hold-out number to be around $100 (maybe $115 with shipping) for any cymbal larger than 18", or for hihats. Maybe $60-80 for a 16" crash. That's very inexpensive. Stick to your bottom line and don't get too attached to any one auction; there will be many more coming. Be sure to find out what shipping will be; some sellers overcharge pretty egregiously.


Learn how to work the Craigslist
This will be your means for reselling any cymbals that don't work for you. It's free, and people aren't relying solely on a nice-looking ad to decide on a purchases-- they can actually come over and play the cymbal. Since you held out for a great deal on eBay, you will have a lot of flexibility to give them a great deal and move them along quickly-- maybe you can even turn a small profit. Just clean the cymbal up a little bit, take a decent picture.


Damaged cymbals
If you want really low prices, you can consider cymbals with very minor damage or wear to the metal-- significant keyholing, slight edge funkiness (like a very shallow bend, or significant scuffs, "flea bites" or whatever), or slight cracks (meaning < 1/2"). These will lower the price of the cymbal without necessarily harming its playability; I've owned and played a few cracked cymbals for years or decades without the condition or sound deteriorating further. Buying them online we're just hoping to get lucky that the thing still sounds OK; I can't really recommend buying damaged cymbals without playing them first, or at least hearing a decent recording.